Monday, March 16, 2009

Crucifixion or Crucifiction - A Response (PART 1)

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are
perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." - 1
Corinthians 1:18

In the series of posts to follow, I will be responding to the book by Ahmed Deedat under the same name "Crucifixion or Crucifiction" You will find that the arguments presented by Deedat in his book are the same arguments found in the videos I posted of his lecture.

On my last days of Paltalk, I had an interesting conversation with a
muslim gentleman named Yahya. I said to him that the only reason he
believes that Jesus Christ was not crucified was because of Surah
4:157, and that had that verse not appeared in the Quran, he would
believe the crucifixion as we do, citing the same evidence we do to
those who disagree.

Let us first examine Surah 4:157 and how we can know it is not
divinely inspired. Then we can take a look at the Islamic explanations
of what took place on that day at Calvary.

"And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of
Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they
crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely
those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no
knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed
him not for sure." - 4:157 Shakir Translation.

Let us look first at the titles given by the Jews in this verse to Jesus:

(1) Messiah
(2) Son of Marium
(3) Messenger of Allah

The only plausible title that would appear in this verse is the 2nd -
i.e. Son of Marium.

However, let's take a look at the other two. Firstly, the Jews would
NEVER refer to Jesus as the Messiah, because they did not believe that
He was the Messiah. They would certainly not desire to kill a person
whom they genuinely thought was the promised Messiah.

But the problem becomes even greater when we examine the third title -
Messenger of Allah. First of all, Jesus was never ever referred to in
any historical writings as the Messenger of Allah. The name Allah does
not ever appear in them, including the Talmud. Again, like with the
first title, the Jews would never refer to someone they are killing as
a messenger or prophet of God. It would seem more likely that they
would call him a messenger of the devil or some other such thing.

Now we turn our attention to the words "killed" and "crucified". This
is where Muslim theology melts into a puddle of goo. There is a big
split here as to what this really means. Some believe that it means
that Jesus was not put to death, nor was He even put on the cross.
This is known as the Substitution theory, and was commonly the most
traditional view held by Muslims. One such proponent of this theory
today is Osama Abdallah (founder of www.answering-christianity.com)

Some belive, as Shabir Ally points out, that the word "killed" is
referring to the act of execution in a general way, whereas
"crucified" is referring to the act of execution in a specific way.
Thus, Jesus was in fact put on the cross, but did not die there. The
obvious objection from the former interpretors is that "being nailed
to the cross equals crucifixion, which would contradict the Qur'an".
This point was masterfully made in a debate between Ahmed Deedat and
John Gilchrist. Read more about that debate at this URL:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Deedat/deedat.html

The substitutionists also interpret "but it appeared to them so (like
Isa)" as meaning that there was another person made to look like
Jesus, who was put upon the cross. Some Muslims say that it was Judas
Iscariot. Others say Simon of Cyrene, and others have other theories
as to who it was.

The Swoon-theoriest group (Shabir Ally etc...) suggest that the text
in the Qur'an merely points out that it only appeared that Jesus had
been killed and crucified on the cross when in fact He had not.

A very quick rebuttal to that claim is that if they are to claim that
it only appeared that way, then they would have to suggest that it
appeared that Jesus was killed twice - first in a GENERAL way, and
then secondly in a more specific way, i.e. by way of crucifixion. As
none of the muslims would claim such a ridiculous notion, they would
by necessity have to retract the claim that crucified must mean
killing in a specific way and not allow the possibility of it simply
meaning to be nailed to the cross, since the word killed already
appears in the text.

Interestingly, the end of the verse only serves to add to the complete
confusion, when it says: "and most surely those who differ therein are
only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but
only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure."

This statement is a contradiction of the first part of the verse
wherein the Jews are said to state something they are sure of, and yet
the latter part of the verse says that it is they who differ about the
matter, following conjecture, with no certain knowledge.

The Jews were clear about this matter. The death of Jesus was never
ever disputed among them. They never differed about it. On the
contrary, it is the Muslims who dispute about what took place. It is
they that have no certain knowledge, following the saying of a man who
came some 600 years after the event.

This verse is probably one of the strongest evidences against the
Divine inspiration of the Quran. It fails logically, historically, and
theologically.

When time allows, I will examine each of these two popular theories
put forward by Muslims - both the Swoon theory (that Jesus passed out
on the cross), and the substitution theory (that someone else was
placed upon the cross). We shall see how utterly bankrupt the muslim
position rests in both theories and why we Christians can be assured
of the reliability of the accounts of the gospels. I would like to go
into some of the often discussed "contradictions" of the gospels and
then present both cases side by side. The results will be devastating
to one, and uplifting and edifying to the other.

May the Lord bless you all. He has purchased you from among men with
His precious redeeming blood. Now, may the God of all grace fill you
and supply you bountifully.

20 Comments:

At March 17, 2009 8:54 AM , Blogger Semper Paratus said...

Thank you, that was very nice. Some realy good points I hadn't thought of.

 
At March 17, 2009 4:33 PM , Blogger Royal Son said...

Thank you Semper Paratus! There is more to come :)

 
At September 23, 2009 3:47 PM , Anonymous n/a said...

"The name Allah does
not ever appear in them."

That is because Allah is an Arabic word, and Jesus spoke Aramaic. Jesus was the messenger of Elahh, and "Elahh" is the Aramaic for "Allah," which is the PROPER word for God, unlike the English word which you can play around with.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?search=0426&version=kjv&type=eng&submit=Find

"those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) know ledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not."

You FOOL, this does NOT contradict the beginning part of the verse, since this verse says ANYONE who thinks different, have no CERTAIN knowledge. Those who claimed to have "killed" him had NO certain knowledge, because IF they did, they would know that Jesus was NEVER crucufied. So, there's NO contradiction, since ANYONE who had that idea, had NO CERTAIN knowledge and only conjunctions to follow so those who thought he was crucufied. Your giving you own BIASED and false interpretation to suit your corrupted Bible.

Also, all Jews NEVER believed he was crucified you idiot so STOP SPREADING LIES. Apocalypse of Peter which was written BY A DISCIPLE in the 1st PERSON says:

"The Savior said to me, 'He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living JESUS.' But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the SUBSTITUTE being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness."

This is alot more reliable than your corrupted Bible, since it was written by his DISCIPLE. There were EARLIER sects (no less than SEVEN) which believed he NEVER was Crucified, including: the early basilians, Carpocrates, nazarites, sorinthians, Doceti's, basilidians and chalcedons so DONT LIE.

The Jews were made to follow the commandments of old testament (Matthew 5:17-19). Old Testament says:

Psalm 49:7
"NO MAN can redeem the life of ANOTHER or give to God a ransom for him."

Jesus wanted them to KEEP THESE COMMANDMENTS, so IF he died for us, that makes Jesus a hypocrite for not following what he asked others to follow.

 
At September 23, 2009 3:51 PM , Anonymous n/a said...

"The name Allah does
not ever appear in them."

That is because Allah is an Arabic word, and Jesus spoke Aramaic. Jesus was the messenger of Elahh, and "Elahh" is the Aramaic for "Allah," which is the PROPER word for God, unlike the English word which you can play around with. Also, Jesus's ete witnesses claimed he was a PROPHET of God (Matthew 21:11, John 6:14, John 4:19, John 9:17)

http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?search=0426&version=kjv&type=eng&submit=Find

"those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) know ledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not."

You FOOL, this does NOT contradict the beginning part of the verse, since this verse says ANYONE who thinks different, have no CERTAIN knowledge. Those who claimed to have "killed" him had NO certain knowledge, because IF they did, they would know that Jesus was NEVER crucufied. So, there's NO contradiction, since ANYONE who had that idea, had NO CERTAIN knowledge and only conjunctions to follow so those who thought he was crucufied. Your giving you own BIASED and false interpretation to suit your corrupted Bible.

Also, all Jews NEVER believed he was crucified you idiot so STOP SPREADING LIES. Apocalypse of Peter which was written BY A DISCIPLE in the 1st PERSON says:

"The Savior said to me, 'He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living JESUS.' But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the SUBSTITUTE being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness."

This is alot more reliable than your corrupted Bible, since it was written by his DISCIPLE. There were EARLIER sects (no less than SEVEN) which believed he NEVER was Crucified, including: the early basilians, Carpocrates, nazarites, sorinthians, Doceti's, basilidians and chalcedons so DONT LIE.

The Jews were made to follow the commandments of old testament (Matthew 5:17-19). Old Testament says:

Psalm 49:7
"NO MAN can redeem the life of ANOTHER or give to God a ransom for him."

Jesus wanted them to KEEP THESE COMMANDMENTS, so IF he died for us, that makes Jesus a hypocrite for not following what he asked others to follow.

 
At September 23, 2009 3:53 PM , Anonymous n/a said...

Let me take you to Jesus' EYE WITNESSES:

In Luke 24:36-37 the disciples THOUGHT he was a ghost, because Jesus said that resurrected bodies are spirituelized (Luke 20:35-36), so the disciples in Luke 24:38-40 THOUGHT he died and rose as a ghost (spirit) form, YET Jesus refutes them AND YOU CHRISTIANS by saying:

Luke 24:39:
"Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost DOES NOT have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

Jesus proves he was NOT a spirit meaning he was NOT a resurrected body, since resurrected bodies are Angelized/ Spiritulized and Jesus was NEVER since he had flesh and bones, PROVING he NEVER died at all and IF he did die and rise, that means Jesus lied in Luke 20:35-36 by saying resurrected bodies are Angelized. You can't have it both ways, be consistent and truthful.


Luke 24:46:
"He told them, "This is what is WRITTEN: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day."

Jesus "allegedly" said this verse AFTER his "alleged" crucifixion and resurrection. IF Jesus prophesied his DEATH and resurrection in Luke 24:46, HOW could he possibly have said this AFTER he had "allegedly" died and rose alive? It is CLEAR CUT PROOF that this is a FABRICATION and HUMAN HANDIWORK, because IF this verse was 100% TRUE and said by Jesus Christ, he would have said this BEFORE the "alleged" crucufixion and resurrection. Does it make ANY sense that Jesus "allegedly" said this AFTER his "alleged" crucufixion and resurrection? Would he really be that DUMB, if he REALLY said this? Or, did someone PUT THIS VERSE IN as his words? It is most certainly the 2nd option, because Jesus would have LIED if he said he was going to "die" AFTER he "allegedly" died because IF he said this AFTER he died and rose, it meant that he could NEVER die again.

Luke 24:46 also says "This is what is WRITTEN."


Now, when Jesus said this in many other places in the Gospels, it meant that what he said was EXACTLY and WORD-BY-WORD in the Old Testament, every time he said: "This is what is WRITTEN." Now, this is a challenge to ALL Christians to show me ONE place in the ENTIRE Old Testament where it says:

"The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day."

NO-WHERE will you find this verse which Jesus "supposingly" said was written, and NO-WHERE can this and NOT EVEN a verse somewhat similar can be found, where it says this in Old Testament and that is a CHALLANGE.

This means 1 of 2 things: Either: "Jesus was LYING," OR "Someone ELSE wrote this down as a fabrication and a lie." Now, I KNOW that it is the 2nd option, because Jesus was supposed to be 100% SINLESS according to Christians, and was NOT supposed to LIE or bend the truth. I do NOT believe Jesus would lie when it comes to him delivering what he had to deliver. So, IF Christians agree with what Jesus said in Luke 24:36, this means that they HAVE to believe Jesus was LYING since what Jesus said here is NO-WHERE to be found in Old Testament. But, IF Christians disagree with what Jesus said, they also have to agree SOMEONE ELSE put this verse in as a fabrication and LIE. You can't have it both ways. Either Jesus lied, or someone else put this lie in. Since I am SURE Jesus did NOT lie, I agree that someone ELSE wrote this down as a fabrication and a lie, proving that the Bible is NOT from God, and proving that Jesus did NOT die, people tried to make it as if Jesus predicted he did, when in reality he NEVER did.

 
At September 23, 2009 3:54 PM , Anonymous n/a said...

Let me take you to Jesus' EYE WITNESSES:

In Luke 24:36-37 the disciples THOUGHT he was a ghost, because Jesus said that resurrected bodies are spirituelized (Luke 20:35-36), so the disciples in Luke 24:38-40 THOUGHT he died and rose as a ghost (spirit) form, YET Jesus refutes them AND YOU CHRISTIANS by saying:

Luke 24:39:
"Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost DOES NOT have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

Jesus proves he was NOT a spirit meaning he was NOT a resurrected body, since resurrected bodies are Angelized/ Spiritulized and Jesus was NEVER since he had flesh and bones, PROVING he NEVER died at all and IF he did die and rise, that means Jesus lied in Luke 20:35-36 by saying resurrected bodies are Angelized. You can't have it both ways, be consistent and truthful.


Luke 24:46:
"He told them, "This is what is WRITTEN: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day."

Jesus "allegedly" said this verse AFTER his "alleged" crucifixion and resurrection. IF Jesus prophesied his DEATH and resurrection in Luke 24:46, HOW could he possibly have said this AFTER he had "allegedly" died and rose alive? It is CLEAR CUT PROOF that this is a FABRICATION and HUMAN HANDIWORK, because IF this verse was 100% TRUE and said by Jesus Christ, he would have said this BEFORE the "alleged" crucufixion and resurrection. Does it make ANY sense that Jesus "allegedly" said this AFTER his "alleged" crucufixion and resurrection? Would he really be that DUMB, if he REALLY said this? Or, did someone PUT THIS VERSE IN as his words? It is most certainly the 2nd option, because Jesus would have LIED if he said he was going to "die" AFTER he "allegedly" died because IF he said this AFTER he died and rose, it meant that he could NEVER die again.

Luke 24:46 also says "This is what is WRITTEN."


Now, when Jesus said this in many other places in the Gospels, it meant that what he said was EXACTLY and WORD-BY-WORD in the Old Testament, every time he said: "This is what is WRITTEN." Now, this is a challenge to ALL Christians to show me ONE place in the ENTIRE Old Testament where it says:

"The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day."

NO-WHERE will you find this verse which Jesus "supposingly" said was written, and NO-WHERE can this and NOT EVEN a verse somewhat similar can be found, where it says this in Old Testament and that is a CHALLANGE.

This means 1 of 2 things: Either: "Jesus was LYING," OR "Someone ELSE wrote this down as a fabrication and a lie." Now, I KNOW that it is the 2nd option, because Jesus was supposed to be 100% SINLESS according to Christians, and was NOT supposed to LIE or bend the truth. I do NOT believe Jesus would lie when it comes to him delivering what he had to deliver. So, IF Christians agree with what Jesus said in Luke 24:36, this means that they HAVE to believe Jesus was LYING since what Jesus said here is NO-WHERE to be found in Old Testament. But, IF Christians disagree with what Jesus said, they also have to agree SOMEONE ELSE put this verse in as a fabrication and LIE. You can't have it both ways. Either Jesus lied, or someone else put this lie in. Since I am SURE Jesus did NOT lie, I agree that someone ELSE wrote this down as a fabrication and a lie, proving that the Bible is NOT from God, and proving that Jesus did NOT die, people tried to make it as if Jesus predicted he did, when in reality he NEVER did.

 
At September 27, 2009 4:44 PM , Blogger Dom said...

For some reason I could not post this inthe 3rd debate.

You stated
Deedat claims that Muslims are the most hygenic, generous, and ethical people. As I pointed out, this is questionable at best and has nothing to do with the topic.

Answering this
You don't think people that wash their hands, feet, face 5 times a day are not hygenic ?

The government in Australia have to spend my money on commercial telling people the obvious; to wash their hands after going to the toilet.

The local current affair show did a survey on hygiene. One of the lunches they tested out of a person refrigerator had small bits of poo in it. The person preparing the food did not wash his hands after going to the toilet. So who are the hygenic ones ?

 
At September 27, 2009 4:58 PM , Blogger Dom said...

You stated
Deedat claims that there were no witnesses to the crucifixion because everyone forsook Jesus and fled. And yet the bible shows that people returned later, including Peter, Mary the Mother of Jesus, and
John the disciple.

Answer
Regardless of whether the disciples were there or not we need to look at the resulting text. Full of contradictions. No one can tell me what Jesus last words were because all four accounts differ. This was such an important event and no one knows what Jesus last words were.

Mark was the first writer to record the crucifixion, yet he was NOT an eye-witness!

“The author of Mark, the earliest of the narrative gospels, was not an eyewitness: he is reporting information conveyed to him by a third person or persons, who themselves were quite possible not eye-witnesses” (Robert Walter Funk, The Jesus Seminar: The Acts of Jesus, p. 4)

“There is hardly any record of his code of behavior. The books in the New Testament do not even contain eye-witness accounts of his sayings and actions. They were written by people who derived their knowledge second-hand. These records are not comprehensive. Everything which Jesus said and did which has not been recorded has been lost forever”. (Muhammad Ataur-Raheem, Jesus Prophet of Islam, 1992 edition, p. 195)

What a tragedy. A bigger tragedy is that Christians do not see this.

 
At September 27, 2009 5:13 PM , Blogger Dom said...

You said
Deedat claims that Jesus was preparing for Jihad because he didn't want to die, citing the reference to the swords that Jesus ordered His disciples to purchase. Yet Jesus explained that it was merely to fulfill scripture, not for fighting.

From Deedats book. Perhaps you should have read it.

"When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing" Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment and buy one!"
HOLY BIBLE Luke 22:35-36

He wanted them to have swords. Doesn't sound like turn the other cheek material to me.

The situation and the circumstance have changed and as with any wise and able general, the strategy must also change. The disciples were already armed. They had some foresight. They had not left Galilee with bare knuckles. They responded:

". . . Lord, behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough".
HOLY BIBLE Luke 22:38

The missionary, so as to retain the impression of the "meek and gentle Jesus", "the Prince of Peace", pleads that the SWORDS were spiritual! If the swords were spiritual, then the "garments" must also be spiritual. If the disciples of Jesus were to sell their SPIRITUAL garments to buy SPIRITUAL swords, in that case they would all become SPIRITUALLY naked! Furthermore, one does not lop off peoples physical ears with spiritual swords —

"And, behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his SWORD, and
struck a servant of the high priests, and cut off his ear."

The only purpose of swords or guns is to maim and to kill. People did not carry swords to pare apples and bananas in the time of Christ.

Fast forward to the Gethsemane.

The question that would bug any thinker is: "Why did they all go to Gethsemane? To pray? Could they not have prayed in the upper-room? Could they not have gone to the Temple of Solomon, a stone's throw from where they were, if prayer is all that they wanted to do? No! They went to the Garden so that they might be in a better position to defend themselves!

Observe, Jesus does not take the eight with him to pray. He positions them strategically at the entrance to the courtyard; armed to the hilt, as the circumstances would allow:

"And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee. . . Then saith he unto them. . .
tarry ye here and watch with me."
HOLY BIBLE Matthew 26:37-38

Where is he taking Peter and John and James now? Further into the Garden! To pray? No! To make an inner line of defence — he had put eight at the Gate, and, now these zealous Zealots (the fighting Irishmen of their day), armed with SWORDS, to "wait and watch " — TO KEEP GUARD! The picture is very vivid; Jesus leaves nothing to our imagination. A-n-d HE (alone) prayed!

 
At September 27, 2009 5:14 PM , Blogger Dom said...

Jesus prays for rescue.

". . . and began to be sorrowful and very depressed. Then saith he unto them, ‘my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death' . . ."

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face (Exactly as the Muslim does in Salaat), and prayed, saying, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."
(This is the quality of a good Muslim who submits his will to the will of God).
HOLY BIBLE Matthew 26: 37-39

"And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly;
and his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down to the ground’’
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:44

Why all this bewailing and lamentation? Is he crying to save his skin? It would be highly cynical on his part to do that! Did he not advise others:

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out . . . And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
HOLY BIBLE Matthew 5:29-30

We would be doing Jesus a grave injustice if we thought that he was crying like a woman to save his body from physical harm. He was crying for his people — the Jews. They held a queer logic, that if they succeeded in killing any would-be Messiah (Christ), it would be a sure proof of his imposture. For God Almighty will never allow His truly "anointed one" (Christ) 1 to be killed —

Deuteronomy 18:20. Hence the insistence of the Jews as a people, as a whole, in rejecting Jesus, the son of Mary, as their promised Messiah — "The eternal rejection."

 
At October 9, 2009 4:21 AM , Blogger Royal Son said...

n/a said: "You FOOL, this does NOT contradict the beginning part of the verse, since this verse says ANYONE who thinks different, have no CERTAIN knowledge. Those who claimed to have "killed" him had NO certain knowledge, because IF they did, they would know that Jesus was NEVER crucufied. So, there's NO contradiction, since ANYONE who had that idea, had NO CERTAIN knowledge and only conjunctions to follow so those who thought he was crucufied. Your giving you own BIASED and false interpretation to suit your corrupted Bible."

My response:

First of all, I'd appreciate if you could leave the name calling out.

Secondly, Regarding the point about having no certain knowledge, the ayat doesn't stop there, it says they "are only in a doubt about it". Please explain how someone who says "Surely" is only in doubt ?

Thirdly, for people who were there at the scene, witnessing the crucifixion itself, do you think they had more or less knowledge than muslims who follow a prophet that comes 600 years later?

Fourthly, when some muslims claim that Jesus was substituted by Judas Iscariot on the cross, some muslims claim that it was Simon of Cyrene, some claim that it was someone else on the cross, and others claim that no one substituted Jesus on the cross but that He only swooned there, are these claims based upon certain knowledge or conjecture?

n/a said:

"Also, all Jews NEVER believed he was crucified you idiot so STOP SPREADING LIES. Apocalypse of Peter which was written BY A DISCIPLE in the 1st PERSON says:

"The Savior said to me, 'He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living JESUS.' But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the SUBSTITUTE being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness."


My response: I wonder if you can string together some sensible responses without the personal attacks. I hope so.

Okay so basically you believe in the Apocalypse of Peter. That would mean that you actually disagree with Ahmed Deedat's position then, because he taught the swoon theory, not the substitution theory. Would you agree then that Deedat's Swoon theory is based upon conjecture? I am supposing that you consider yourself to have certain knowledge of the substitution theory.

Let's press further. Since you consider the Apocalypse of Peter that means that you believe that Jesus was actually standing beside the cross, laughing while Simon of Cyrene was being crucified. Somehow, Simon of Cyrene never cries out that the Jews have got the wrong guy, and somehow none of the Jews can see Jesus laughing at the cross. Is this truly what you want to purport as fact?

I would also be interested to know why you would accept a source that comes much later than any of the gospels (175 - 200 AD).

Let us see what else the Apocalypse of Peter contains:

"And he (Peter) pondered thereon, that he might perceive the mystery of the Son of God, the merciful and lover of mercy."

According to the Qur'an Allah has no sons.

"And my Father shall set a crown upon my head, that I may judge the quick and the dead and recompense every one according to his works.”"

Jesus will judge mankind, that would include Mohammad.

 
At October 9, 2009 4:22 AM , Blogger Royal Son said...

n/a said:
This is alot more reliable than your corrupted Bible, since it was written by his DISCIPLE. There were EARLIER sects (no less than SEVEN) which believed he NEVER was Crucified, including: the early basilians, Carpocrates, nazarites, sorinthians, Doceti's, basilidians and chalcedons so DONT LIE.

The Jews were made to follow the commandments of old testament (Matthew 5:17-19). Old Testament says:

Psalm 49:7
"NO MAN can redeem the life of ANOTHER or give to God a ransom for him."

Jesus wanted them to KEEP THESE COMMANDMENTS, so IF he died for us, that makes Jesus a hypocrite for not following what he asked others to follow.


My response

You say that the Apocalypse of Peter is written by Jesus' disciple. Firstly, you are wrong, as noted it is a text that appears well after Peter's Martyrdom. Secondly, now since you consider Peter to be a true disciple of Jesus, what do you have to say about the Epistles of Peter which declare the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

2 Peter 1:3 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, "

You say that no man can redeem the sins of another which is true for a MERE man, but Jesus Christ is the God-Man, perfect and holy.

However, you will need to explain why according to Sahih Muslim book 37 number 6665, 6666, and 6668, Christians and Jews will pay for the sins of Muslims on the day of resurrection. Not just ordinary sins either but sins as "great as a mountain"

 
At October 9, 2009 8:48 AM , Blogger Royal Son said...

n/a saidLet me take you to Jesus' EYE WITNESSES:

In Luke 24:36-37 the disciples THOUGHT he was a ghost, because Jesus said that resurrected bodies are spirituelized (Luke 20:35-36), so the disciples in Luke 24:38-40 THOUGHT he died and rose as a ghost (spirit) form, YET Jesus refutes them AND YOU CHRISTIANS by saying:

Luke 24:39:
"Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost DOES NOT have flesh and bones, as you see I have."


My response:

Jesus is refuting me by saying that he's not a spirit? How is that refuting me? How is that refuting Christians? We don't believe He is a spirit, we believe He is the God-man. Jesus was correct, spirits don't have flesh and bones. This verse simply shows that Jesus' resurrection was a bodily resurrection.

n/a said:

Jesus proves he was NOT a spirit meaning he was NOT a resurrected body, since resurrected bodies are Angelized/ Spiritulized and Jesus was NEVER since he had flesh and bones, PROVING he NEVER died at all and IF he did die and rise, that means Jesus lied in Luke 20:35-36 by saying resurrected bodies are Angelized. You can't have it both ways, be consistent and truthful.


Having a spiritual body does not make a person a spirit. And where do you see Jesus saying that resurrected bodies will be angelized? What Luke 20:35-36 says is that resurrected children of God will be like angels in that they will be immortal.

n/a wrote:

Luke 24:46:
"He told them, "This is what is WRITTEN: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day."

Jesus "allegedly" said this verse AFTER his "alleged" crucifixion and resurrection. IF Jesus prophesied his DEATH and resurrection in Luke 24:46, HOW could he possibly have said this AFTER he had "allegedly" died and rose alive? It is CLEAR CUT PROOF that this is a FABRICATION and HUMAN HANDIWORK, because IF this verse was 100% TRUE and said by Jesus Christ, he would have said this BEFORE the "alleged" crucufixion and resurrection. Does it make ANY sense that Jesus "allegedly" said this AFTER his "alleged" crucufixion and resurrection? Would he really be that DUMB, if he REALLY said this? Or, did someone PUT THIS VERSE IN as his words? It is most certainly the 2nd option, because Jesus would have LIED if he said he was going to "die" AFTER he "allegedly" died because IF he said this AFTER he died and rose, it meant that he could NEVER die again.


I find it interesting the number of times you used the word allegedly or modifiers thereof. You seem to have no trouble quoting Luke 24:39 as authentic words of Jesus, and yet all of a sudden, in the very same chapter, only 7 verses later, it suddenly becomes His "alleged" words. This hyper-skepticism is not based upon an honest reading of the text but upon your Islamic presuppositions.

You asked if Jesus prophesied His death and resurrection in Luke 24:46, how could He possibly have said this after He rose from the dead? Actually, I never said that Luke 24:46 was a prophecy of Jesus' death and resurrection, what I did say is that it was a confirmation that the prophecies had been fulfilled. The prophecies take place earlier in Luke 18:31-33

"31 Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. 33 On the third day he will rise again."

 
At October 9, 2009 8:55 AM , Blogger Royal Son said...

n/a said:

Luke 24:46 also says "This is what is WRITTEN."
Now, when Jesus said this in many other places in the Gospels, it meant that what he said was EXACTLY and WORD-BY-WORD in the Old Testament, every time he said: "This is what is WRITTEN." Now, this is a challenge to ALL Christians to show me ONE place in the ENTIRE Old Testament where it says:

"The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day."

NO-WHERE will you find this verse which Jesus "supposingly" said was written, and NO-WHERE can this and NOT EVEN a verse somewhat similar can be found, where it says this in Old Testament and that is a CHALLANGE.


My Response:

First of all, you are forcing a literal word-for-word verse in the Old Testament where Jesus did not intend a word-for-word verse. If pages in the Old Testament are written about the Messiah, His death, and resurrection, then it agrees with His words in Luke 24:46. This is quite easy to see if you simply look at the previous two verses:

44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Here Jesus makes it clear that He is not speaking about a single verse but rather that there are prophecies concerning Him in the Law of Moses, The Prophets, and the Psalms, together they predict the death and resurrection of the Messiah after three days.

Now let us turn to each:

Genesis 22:4 - On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance.

5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."

6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together,

7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?" "Yes, my son?" Abraham replied. "The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

8 Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood.

10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.

11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son.

This comes from the Pentateuch of Moses.

 
At October 9, 2009 8:58 AM , Blogger Royal Son said...

Now for the Prophets:

Jonah 1:17 But the Lord provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was inside the fish three days and three nights.

1 From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the Lord his God. 2 He said: "In my distress I called to the Lord, and he answered me. From the depths of the grave I called for help, and you listened to my cry.


Isa 53:7-11 - 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Now onto Psalms -

Psa 22

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. 16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. 18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing. 19 But you, O Lord, be not far off; O my Strength, come quickly to help me. 20 Deliver my life from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs.

n/a said:

This means 1 of 2 things: Either: "Jesus was LYING," OR "Someone ELSE wrote this down as a fabrication and a lie." Now, I KNOW that it is the 2nd option, because Jesus was supposed to be 100% SINLESS according to Christians, and was NOT supposed to LIE or bend the truth. I do NOT believe Jesus would lie when it comes to him delivering what he had to deliver. So, IF Christians agree with what Jesus said in Luke 24:36, this means that they HAVE to believe Jesus was LYING since what Jesus said here is NO-WHERE to be found in Old Testament. But, IF Christians disagree with what Jesus said, they also have to agree SOMEONE ELSE put this verse in as a fabrication and LIE. You can't have it both ways. Either Jesus lied, or someone else put this lie in. Since I am SURE Jesus did NOT lie, I agree that someone ELSE wrote this down as a fabrication and a lie, proving that the Bible is NOT from God, and proving that Jesus did NOT die, people tried to make it as if Jesus predicted he did, when in reality he NEVER did.


My response:

It is a serious thing to assert that Jesus would be a liar if the story were not a fabrication. I would like to know from you if you believe in the Injeel. If so, what is its content? Keep in mind that noone and nothing can change Allah's word, that would include the Injeel (surah 10:64, 6:34)

 
At October 31, 2009 9:42 AM , Blogger Pionit said...

We do believe in the Injeel given to Jesus (pbuh) which was never written while he walked on this earth nor did he instruct anybody to write it. He was not carrying the Gospels according to Mark, Matthew, Luke and John. Did he? All of these gospels are full of fabrications, corruptions, interpolations and the like. Some examples, the genealogy of Jesus (pbuh) according to Matthew and Luke are world apart. Other example is Mark 16:9-20 which are added later. There maybe some small portions which still contain the word of Jesus (pbuh) like the "shema" or the Paraclete to come.

 
At November 1, 2009 6:03 PM , Blogger Pionit said...

Your analysis of the titles of “Messiah”, “Son of Marium” and “Messenger of Allah” given by the Jews to Jesus as mentioned in the Holy Quran is at best naïve and shallow. First, you should use Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s Translation since it’s the one used by Deedat and not Shakir’s. Second, you should have realized as an Arab-speaking blogger (I suppose) that the Jews who don’t believe in Jesus (pbuh) were saying this in mockery and boasting. Of course, they don’t believe that he is the Messiah and would never refer to him as such among themselves. Moreover, if they could kill him, they would prove their point that Jesus (pbuh) is a false Messiah, an impostor. Remember however that they are boasting to people who genuinely believed Jesus (pbuh) as such. What’s the effect if they say instead: “Surely we have killed the Impostor”? Put it another way, if your visitors believe that you are the “Best Blogger On Deedat” (which I doubt) and I say in boasting: “Surely I have defeated the ‘Best Blogger On Deedat’”, this will create the maximum effect on your visitors as compared to: “Surely I have defeated the ‘Most Stupid Blogger On Deedat’”. What’s there to impress defeating a stupid person? Anybody can do it!

Regarding “Son of Marium”, since you say it’s the “only plausible title”, I need not comment on that.

Regarding “Messenger of Allah”, let me respond in two parts: “Allah” and “Messenger”. What is the name of God according to the lips of Jesus (pbuh) and not according to the Church? Is it “Adonai”? Or Jehovah”? NO! He calls his God similar to Allah. He says: "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" ["Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" in King James Version Bible] -- which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:45-46, NIV). Do you think "Eloi" or "Eli" sounds like Jehovah? Or sounds like Allah? Why is it that, as spoken by Jesus (pbuh) in his mother tongue, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" has never been translated and is preserved as is for eternity in the Bible? But in Psalms 22:1-2, it is translated? Do you see God’s purpose here to show the latter doubter of Allah, that His name is Allah and not otherwise? Moses calls God, “El” or “Elohim”, Jesus calls Him “Eloi” or “Eli”, Muhammad calls Him “Allah”. Sound different or similar? Anent Messenger, you should know well your Bible: it is replete with Jesus (pbuh) averring that he is just a messenger of Eli. To save space, I’ll spell out two verses, then check the others:

- “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath SENT me.” John 5:30
- “And this is the Father's will which hath SENT me” John 6:39
- See also John 5:37, John 6:29, Matt 10:40, Matt 15:24, Mark 9:37, Luke 4:18, Luke 9:48, Luke 10:16, John 4:34, John 5:24, etc.

I’ll reply to the other points you raised in due course. Meanwhile, awaiting your response.

 
At November 3, 2009 5:32 AM , Blogger Pionit said...

Your exposition of the words "killed" and "crucified" which you think "Muslim theology melts into a puddle of goo." is again a very shallow analysis of the real intent of the Quran. Muslim theologians, orientalists, Christian evangelists and the like can argue and debate till eternity that the verse in question should be "substitution" and "swoon" or such and such or so and so. As Shakespeare says it's "much ado about nothing". All you want to do is to muddle or "puddle the goo" because the message of this verse is against your belief. You can interpret it whatever you like but you can never find a contradiction in it as compared to the various contradictions in the Biblical account of the crucifixion. There are many but here are few:

- "Matthew 27:38 and Mark 15:27 say that Jesus was crucified between two robbers (Luke just calls them criminals; John simply calls them men).
- It is a historical fact that the Romans did not crucify robbers. Crucifixion was reserved for insurrectionists and rebellious slaves."

- Simon of Cyrene was forced to bear the cross of Jesus. Mt.27:32; Mk.15:21; Lu.23:26.
- Jesus bore his own cross. Jn.19:16,17

- Jesus was offered vinegar and gall to drink. Mt.27:34.
- Jesus was offered vinegar to drink. Jn.19:29,30.
- Jesus was offered wine and myrrh to drink. Mk.15:23.

- Jesus refused the drink offered him. Mk.15:23.
- Jesus tasted the drink offered and then refused. Mt.27:34.
- Jesus accepted the drink offered him. Jn.19:30.

You see the ending of the verse is the meat of the what is being emphasized which is "... they killed him not for sure." - Quran 4:157. The verse could have said also they did not drown, strangle, stab, asphyxiate, suffocate, smother, spear him. But the gist of this verse is very clear: THEY DID NOT KILL HIM! Period.

 
At November 6, 2009 4:25 AM , Blogger Pionit said...

You quote Corinthians 1:18 in the beginning of your blog which was written by Paul – he wrote almost half of the New Testament, 13 out of 27 books. (Jesus (pbuh) never wrote any of these books nor did he order anybody to write them. Never has been Gospel According To Jesus (pbuh) in the New Testament.) And yet Paul has never met Jesus (pbuh). Jesus (pbuh) had not appointed him as member of his 12 disciples nor did Jesus (pbuh) left a will to his original disciples, especially his brother James, that he is appointing a disciple or apostle by the name of Saul (or Paul) of Tarsus. Paul appointed himself as an apostle of Jesus and stupid unthinking Gentiles swallowed him hook, line and sinker. In fact, mainstream Christians today, including the owner of this site, are following the false teaching of Paul and not of Jesus (pbuh).

Jesus (pbuh) warned of a false apostle Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”.
This wolf is without doubt Paul. He not only destroyed the teaching of Jesus (pbuh) but introduced strange teachings which was never ever taught by Jesus (pbuh). Jesus (pbuh) says in Matthew 5:17-18 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law…”. Yet Paul in Romans 7:7-8: "'I' do not know sin except through the Law". In Romans 10:4, Paul further says “For Christ is the end of the law…”. Jesus (pbuh) emphasized circumcision yet Paul says it’s useless. Jesus says salvation comes through faith and works yet Paul says only faith in Christ – believe that Christ died for your sin and his redeeming blood will save you. This strange Pauline doctrine of salvation was never ever put forward by Jesus (pbuh) but latter invented by this wolf – Paul. And unthinking Christians up to this day (including Royal Son) still believe in this stupid and false doctrine which was NEVER EVER taught by Jesus (pbuh).

 
At February 23, 2010 3:38 AM , Blogger Royal Son said...

Dom said: "You don't think people that wash their hands, feet, face 5 times a day are not hygenic?"

My response: I could answer this in a number of ways, but I'll let your hadiths speak for themselves:

Sunan Abu Dawud 67--I heard that the people asked the Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him): Water is brought for you from the well of Buda’ah. It is a well in which dead dogs, menstrual cloths and excrement of people are thrown. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) replied: Verily water is pure and is not defiled by anything.

Sunan Ibn Majah 520--It was narrated that Jabir bin Abdullah said: "We came to a pond in which there was the carcass of a donkey, so we refrained from using the water until the Messenger of Allah came to us and said: 'Water is not made impure by anything.' Then we drank from it and gave it to our animals to drink, and we carried some with us."

Dom said:

The government in Australia have to spend my money on commercial telling people the obvious; to wash their hands after going to the toilet.

The local current affair show did a survey on hygiene. One of the lunches they tested out of a person refrigerator had small bits of poo in it. The person preparing the food did not wash his hands after going to the toilet. So who are the hygenic ones ?

According to Mohammad, water is not defiled by anything, so wash yourself in all that filth and it would be considered pure according to your prophet.

 

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